Unlike baseball, football statistics for QBs have little meaning to me. Yes, I understand that Mahomes raw numbers this year don't look as good as the three AFC all star quarterbacks (Jackson, Allen, Burrows). There aren't as good looking as Baker Mayfield's numbers. Baker is the first pro bowl alternate. Still, is there is anybody out there who believes that Mahomes is at best only the 5th best QB in the AFC? There is only one number that counts. Mahomes is 15-1 as a starter this year, best in the NFL. If you had to pick a QB to start in a game to save your life, who would you pick?
Thanks Joe. Here in Seattle we love us some Cal Raleigh. He might even be underrated as a hitter when you consider half of his games are played in Seattle where hits go to die. For those that didn't read the article about the park as the anti-Coors field, Here are his splits for last year.
For some reason, Joe didn't pick a DH for his all nickname teams, even though the obvious names are "Edgar" and "Big Papi." Fun fact: back when David Arias was still an obscure Mariner farmhand, about to be a throw-in in a stupid trade for Dave Hollins, Edgar's nickname in the Mariner locker room (not, to my knowledge, known to the public) was "Papi." I know this because I was friends with the girlfriend of one of the Mariners the summer of '95.
Mariner fan since '77. I remember early on Edgar was called both "Papi" and "Gar". His playing career was about 10 years before David Ortiz who began being called Big Papi in 2003 when he came to the Red Sox, a year before Edgar retired. "Gar" has been the nickname since about that time probably to avoid confusion. The nickname once proposed for Edgar of "Señor Doble" was my favorite but never caught on. (Edgar twice led the league in doubles). Combine that with his 1995 walk off double against the Yankees in the playoffs would have made the name all the more fitting to me.
As an O's fan, I just have to imagine that whatever ailed Adley in the 2nd half (it was brutal to watch, and I can't count how many times I thought, 'Alright, he's gotta break out here, right?' and he just didn't) is his primary focus this offseason (and the team's honestly) and that he's going to come into next season regrouped, healthy, and ready to solidify himself as the objective best catcher in baseball. Gunnar's the team's best player, but Adley may be its most important.
Regarding Mahomes, he HAS to be just a little less motivated to play in the regular season games than the playoff games. He's played in so many playoff games that the rest of the season pales in comparison. So yeah, he's not gonna be great in those games. But boy oh boy, he is great. I don't really get into "best ever" arguments because the game is always changing and different from what it used to be. I'm happy saying that Mahomes reminds me so much of Joe Montana in his prime. He just won the big games and the big moments. I was also lucky enough to watch Ali in the 70s. And there are other "GOAT" athletes who just won. Were they athletically the most talented? Usually, not. But, they always had that psychological edge that it took to win. Look, I'm a 49ers diehard, but I sure can appreciate this historical moment in the NFL.
It's interesting how people view Montana's 4-0 record in the Super Bowl, this air of perfection. I think some people think that 4-0 is better than 4-1 or 4-2 (or 7-3, Brady), because it's "perfect."
But losing a Super Bowl is more of an achievement than losing a WC, divisional or conference playoff game. So I think that 4-1 in Super Bowls is better than 4-0, and 4-2 is better than 4-1. Montana had four playoff one-and-dones, two divisional round losses, and one conference championship loss. So yes, "all he did was win" *if* he got to the Super Bowl, but 7 times he didn't get there, and those playoff losses were big games too.
Why do I suddenly want to set up a best-of-seven series between the All First Names and All Nicknames teams? I'll have to add more players to fill out the rosters, first.....
Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done about what types of pitches tend to result in the most stolen strikes? I've played around with Savant and can't seem to sort by pitch type, but anecdotally it seems like breaking pitches tend to get the benefit more than fastballs, which logically makes sense but would also seem to indicate that catchers are getting too much of the credit
Yes, at left tackle. The right tackle was the most penalized offensive lineman in the NFL last year. Things got so desperate that they moved an All-Pro guard to left tackle where he has struggled but still been a great improvement over the sieve that was there.before.
Regarding Munson, I did not support him for the Hall, but my mind changed over the years once I realized how important the position was but under represented. In what if often called the Golden Age of catchers when he played, with his contemporaries pretty much all now enshrined, Munson led the AL in catcher bWAR for the decade he played, chipping in a RoY, MVP, being named the first Yankee captain since Lou Gehrig, leading his team to three straight World Series and back-to-back championships. Put him in.
On catchers - We've all noticed that catchers PA's & AB's - have seriously declined for @least a decade. Like Pitching Starters, their batterymates are also receding into the sunset. It's difficult to assess any amount of greatness if most only contribute 250-350 PA's. And there exists plenty of reasons for this ... the physical toll of catching games, defensive only catchers, pitch framing disputes, arm troubles ... etc. Eventually the stats might have to be adjusted, just as with Starters.
This was my first thought too. MLB catchers just don't log the quantity of games/plate appearances as much. They aren't trained to catch that many games either. I work in minor league baseball. It's very rare to have a catcher start five games of a six-game series. It's usually four games for the "priority catcher" and one of those starts might be as a DH/1B.
Then I read the interesting replies to your note: Dr. Doom, KTM and James are all onto something.
In theory, it's easier for the modern ballplayer to play every day. We know so much more about ice baths, hydration, better foods to eat. We have charter planes, more night games, very little artificial turf, even better uniforms to stay cooler in the heat.
Yet we also know more about how rest helps players perform better and avoid injury. Yet ... players get injured more than ever before.
I really have no idea the answer, or if there is even a problem, but I do find it all fascinating.
Last year, William Contreras had 679 PA. Adley Rutschman had 638. Salvy had 652. Will Smith had 544. Cal Raleigh had 628. Shane Langeliers had 534. Logan O'Hoppe had 542. JT Realmuto missed a 35-game stretch in the June/July, but still had 413 PA, and prorated would've had another 115-ish if he hadn't had a major injury. That's over a quarter of the league. We're in a phase now where the top catchers catch about 130-135 games a year.That's been the case since 2017.
From 1985-2016, the top guy usually caught 135-145 games, with occasional outliers (your Jason Kendalls, for example) grabbing 150. But there's basically no difference between the numbers in 2024 and 1972 or 1965. Yes, those years are a little unusual, but we've settled now in a place that's not really THAT different from what it was in the past. Maybe a 10-15% reduction in workload, relative to an earlier era... but relative to starting pitching, that's like where things were in the early 2000s - which is to say nowhere near crisis level.
Also, why Duke Sims? He only had 350+ PAs twice in his career. His workload would be quite light compared to a modern starting catcher. Am I missing something?
Actually, Cal Raleigh led MLB in games caught last year at 135 (He DiH'd in another 19). Only 18 caught 100 games or more at catcher. Dropping down to #32 on the list, the number is 81. Only 6 caught 120 games or more.
I do think the DH in both leagues is going to reduce games caught by the #1 catcher as a whole, I know the Royals try to have Salvy catch maybe 4 games/week and then DH him a couple games and play first another. The last two years he caught 91 games each year.
You're correct on the top ones, but usually, there are less games caught by most team's 1st string catcher. The use of advance stats also may have a bearing on this. Watching Al Central teams and Nats, sigh, No big dog catchers.
You are correct that guys like Contreras, Rutschman, and Perez are logging 600+ plate appearances.
It's also the case that with the NL now having a DH and some teams increasingly using first base as a rest spot, a significant chunk of those plate appearances are not *as catchers*.
Contreras, for instance, played 155 games, but only 120 as a catcher.
Rutschman appeared in 148 games, but only 103 as a catcher.
Perez played in 158 games, which is actually more than he appeared in ten years prior (150 in 2014), but this time only 91 times as a catcher, as opposed to the 146 games he caught in 2014.
i am so tired of Mahomes, and i dislike the Chiefs; no fan of the Eagles either, but i will be pulling for them because of the insanely talented Saquon Barkley...
the 2 times i least wanted to see in the Super Bowl are the ones in it...
forgive late comments, once again no wifi at my place...
The KC script is really from the Belichick SB runs .... keep it close and turn on the thrusters in the 4th quarter! But the Eagles did thwart that once! Now about those Guardians, not being on these top 10 lists ....
On another note, Russel Martin & Brian McCann went forth from the catcher's realm to visit the Baseball Writers Federation - Ostensibly to argue their cases, however, they were asked to Fly to the planet Oblivion. Overheard in the lobby - "{Martin} This seems like a strong reaction over a trivial pitch framing dispute. {McCann} Yeah. Do you think we should fly separately to Oblivion?
That 4th and 1 QB sneak that Buffalo did NOT get....that was such a turning point. I cringe when I see those plays--the "tush push" or the "brotherly shove" in Philly, etc. So much humanity crushing in on each other. Will it get banned or restricted, at least, eventually?
And yet there do not seem to be a lot of injuries to the big uglies on those plays, P.S. I consider myself to be a big ugly, so no disparagement was intended.
I thought it was the correct call, but even I was only 70/30. The people saying that it was obviously the wrong call are full of crap. It wasn't completely obvious to anyone. It probably did not help that the TV said that one of the officials had called it a first down (He did not) and that Gene Sterotore, paid by a network that want controversy for views and clicks is one of the people full of crap.
But there were 13 minutes to go, and Buffalo had the lead at the time. They got outplayed in the 4th quarter. Because that is what the Chiefs do. In the 4th quarter, they had (not counting the 2 kneel downs) 18 plays for 139 yards. Buffalo had 20 for 96. The Chiefs scored 4 more points. That was it. In the 4 playoff wins against the Bills combined, the Chiefs have outscored the Bills 44-22 after the beginning of the 4th quarter. Hey, 4 of these is like a game.
It looked like the official to the top of the screen was going to mark it as a first down, possibly guessing by the position of Allen's helmet and assuming the ball was in front of Josh (the official could not have seen. the ball). The position to the bottom of the screen could actually see that the ball did not appear to be clearly in front of the helmet and gave what I thought was a fair mark. It was very, very close.
Your average baseball fan probably doesn't know Josh Gibson based just on his first name. Catcher is kind of a tough one, though, as I'm not sure who else to put? I guess Yogi, even though that's obviously not his real first name.
As a fan who watches the Chiefs every week, it seems pretty clear that Mahomes is dragging an offense that has very few real playmakers to success. I think if you gave him a half decent offensive line and one superstar receiver he'd go right back to throwing for 5,000 yards. Just watching what he did Sunday with a healthy Hollywood Brown showed what they could be capable of.
Unlike baseball, football statistics for QBs have little meaning to me. Yes, I understand that Mahomes raw numbers this year don't look as good as the three AFC all star quarterbacks (Jackson, Allen, Burrows). There aren't as good looking as Baker Mayfield's numbers. Baker is the first pro bowl alternate. Still, is there is anybody out there who believes that Mahomes is at best only the 5th best QB in the AFC? There is only one number that counts. Mahomes is 15-1 as a starter this year, best in the NFL. If you had to pick a QB to start in a game to save your life, who would you pick?
Thanks Joe. Here in Seattle we love us some Cal Raleigh. He might even be underrated as a hitter when you consider half of his games are played in Seattle where hits go to die. For those that didn't read the article about the park as the anti-Coors field, Here are his splits for last year.
Home. .201/.314/.351. OPS .665. OPS+ 87
Away. .237;.311/.512. OPS 823. OPS+ 131
Home field disadvantage?
For some reason, Joe didn't pick a DH for his all nickname teams, even though the obvious names are "Edgar" and "Big Papi." Fun fact: back when David Arias was still an obscure Mariner farmhand, about to be a throw-in in a stupid trade for Dave Hollins, Edgar's nickname in the Mariner locker room (not, to my knowledge, known to the public) was "Papi." I know this because I was friends with the girlfriend of one of the Mariners the summer of '95.
Mariner fan since '77. I remember early on Edgar was called both "Papi" and "Gar". His playing career was about 10 years before David Ortiz who began being called Big Papi in 2003 when he came to the Red Sox, a year before Edgar retired. "Gar" has been the nickname since about that time probably to avoid confusion. The nickname once proposed for Edgar of "Señor Doble" was my favorite but never caught on. (Edgar twice led the league in doubles). Combine that with his 1995 walk off double against the Yankees in the playoffs would have made the name all the more fitting to me.
As an O's fan, I just have to imagine that whatever ailed Adley in the 2nd half (it was brutal to watch, and I can't count how many times I thought, 'Alright, he's gotta break out here, right?' and he just didn't) is his primary focus this offseason (and the team's honestly) and that he's going to come into next season regrouped, healthy, and ready to solidify himself as the objective best catcher in baseball. Gunnar's the team's best player, but Adley may be its most important.
There's only one Splendid Splinter
Regarding Mahomes, he HAS to be just a little less motivated to play in the regular season games than the playoff games. He's played in so many playoff games that the rest of the season pales in comparison. So yeah, he's not gonna be great in those games. But boy oh boy, he is great. I don't really get into "best ever" arguments because the game is always changing and different from what it used to be. I'm happy saying that Mahomes reminds me so much of Joe Montana in his prime. He just won the big games and the big moments. I was also lucky enough to watch Ali in the 70s. And there are other "GOAT" athletes who just won. Were they athletically the most talented? Usually, not. But, they always had that psychological edge that it took to win. Look, I'm a 49ers diehard, but I sure can appreciate this historical moment in the NFL.
I think that the main reason many fans either "hate" the Chiefs or are tired of
the Chiefs is that Mahomes (and to a lesser degree Kelce and Reid) does so
many commercials that dominate the airwaves. Although Mahomes seems like
an affable individual and has done nothing to disgrace himself, some people
are just sick of seeing him all the time.
It's interesting how people view Montana's 4-0 record in the Super Bowl, this air of perfection. I think some people think that 4-0 is better than 4-1 or 4-2 (or 7-3, Brady), because it's "perfect."
But losing a Super Bowl is more of an achievement than losing a WC, divisional or conference playoff game. So I think that 4-1 in Super Bowls is better than 4-0, and 4-2 is better than 4-1. Montana had four playoff one-and-dones, two divisional round losses, and one conference championship loss. So yes, "all he did was win" *if* he got to the Super Bowl, but 7 times he didn't get there, and those playoff losses were big games too.
Why do I suddenly want to set up a best-of-seven series between the All First Names and All Nicknames teams? I'll have to add more players to fill out the rosters, first.....
Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done about what types of pitches tend to result in the most stolen strikes? I've played around with Savant and can't seem to sort by pitch type, but anecdotally it seems like breaking pitches tend to get the benefit more than fastballs, which logically makes sense but would also seem to indicate that catchers are getting too much of the credit
“It’s one thing to say—and it’s true—that he is not surrounded by the same sort of playmakers and offensive tackles he had a few years ago.”
Didn’t they have a rookie OT this season for awhile?
Yes, at left tackle. The right tackle was the most penalized offensive lineman in the NFL last year. Things got so desperate that they moved an All-Pro guard to left tackle where he has struggled but still been a great improvement over the sieve that was there.before.
Regarding Munson, I did not support him for the Hall, but my mind changed over the years once I realized how important the position was but under represented. In what if often called the Golden Age of catchers when he played, with his contemporaries pretty much all now enshrined, Munson led the AL in catcher bWAR for the decade he played, chipping in a RoY, MVP, being named the first Yankee captain since Lou Gehrig, leading his team to three straight World Series and back-to-back championships. Put him in.
On catchers - We've all noticed that catchers PA's & AB's - have seriously declined for @least a decade. Like Pitching Starters, their batterymates are also receding into the sunset. It's difficult to assess any amount of greatness if most only contribute 250-350 PA's. And there exists plenty of reasons for this ... the physical toll of catching games, defensive only catchers, pitch framing disputes, arm troubles ... etc. Eventually the stats might have to be adjusted, just as with Starters.
Where have you gone ... Duke Sims?
This was my first thought too. MLB catchers just don't log the quantity of games/plate appearances as much. They aren't trained to catch that many games either. I work in minor league baseball. It's very rare to have a catcher start five games of a six-game series. It's usually four games for the "priority catcher" and one of those starts might be as a DH/1B.
Then I read the interesting replies to your note: Dr. Doom, KTM and James are all onto something.
In theory, it's easier for the modern ballplayer to play every day. We know so much more about ice baths, hydration, better foods to eat. We have charter planes, more night games, very little artificial turf, even better uniforms to stay cooler in the heat.
Yet we also know more about how rest helps players perform better and avoid injury. Yet ... players get injured more than ever before.
I really have no idea the answer, or if there is even a problem, but I do find it all fascinating.
Last year, William Contreras had 679 PA. Adley Rutschman had 638. Salvy had 652. Will Smith had 544. Cal Raleigh had 628. Shane Langeliers had 534. Logan O'Hoppe had 542. JT Realmuto missed a 35-game stretch in the June/July, but still had 413 PA, and prorated would've had another 115-ish if he hadn't had a major injury. That's over a quarter of the league. We're in a phase now where the top catchers catch about 130-135 games a year.That's been the case since 2017.
From 1985-2016, the top guy usually caught 135-145 games, with occasional outliers (your Jason Kendalls, for example) grabbing 150. But there's basically no difference between the numbers in 2024 and 1972 or 1965. Yes, those years are a little unusual, but we've settled now in a place that's not really THAT different from what it was in the past. Maybe a 10-15% reduction in workload, relative to an earlier era... but relative to starting pitching, that's like where things were in the early 2000s - which is to say nowhere near crisis level.
Also, why Duke Sims? He only had 350+ PAs twice in his career. His workload would be quite light compared to a modern starting catcher. Am I missing something?
Actually, Cal Raleigh led MLB in games caught last year at 135 (He DiH'd in another 19). Only 18 caught 100 games or more at catcher. Dropping down to #32 on the list, the number is 81. Only 6 caught 120 games or more.
I do think the DH in both leagues is going to reduce games caught by the #1 catcher as a whole, I know the Royals try to have Salvy catch maybe 4 games/week and then DH him a couple games and play first another. The last two years he caught 91 games each year.
Going back in time, look at the games played numbers for Randy Hundley
of the Cubs during the 1960's and 1970's. In 1968 he caught in 160 games and started 156 of those.
You're correct on the top ones, but usually, there are less games caught by most team's 1st string catcher. The use of advance stats also may have a bearing on this. Watching Al Central teams and Nats, sigh, No big dog catchers.
Where have you gone Ray Fosse? Or John Romano?
I think you may both onto something.
You are correct that guys like Contreras, Rutschman, and Perez are logging 600+ plate appearances.
It's also the case that with the NL now having a DH and some teams increasingly using first base as a rest spot, a significant chunk of those plate appearances are not *as catchers*.
Contreras, for instance, played 155 games, but only 120 as a catcher.
Rutschman appeared in 148 games, but only 103 as a catcher.
Perez played in 158 games, which is actually more than he appeared in ten years prior (150 in 2014), but this time only 91 times as a catcher, as opposed to the 146 games he caught in 2014.
i am so tired of Mahomes, and i dislike the Chiefs; no fan of the Eagles either, but i will be pulling for them because of the insanely talented Saquon Barkley...
the 2 times i least wanted to see in the Super Bowl are the ones in it...
forgive late comments, once again no wifi at my place...
The KC script is really from the Belichick SB runs .... keep it close and turn on the thrusters in the 4th quarter! But the Eagles did thwart that once! Now about those Guardians, not being on these top 10 lists ....
On another note, Russel Martin & Brian McCann went forth from the catcher's realm to visit the Baseball Writers Federation - Ostensibly to argue their cases, however, they were asked to Fly to the planet Oblivion. Overheard in the lobby - "{Martin} This seems like a strong reaction over a trivial pitch framing dispute. {McCann} Yeah. Do you think we should fly separately to Oblivion?
That 4th and 1 QB sneak that Buffalo did NOT get....that was such a turning point. I cringe when I see those plays--the "tush push" or the "brotherly shove" in Philly, etc. So much humanity crushing in on each other. Will it get banned or restricted, at least, eventually?
And yet there do not seem to be a lot of injuries to the big uglies on those plays, P.S. I consider myself to be a big ugly, so no disparagement was intended.
I thought it was the correct call, but even I was only 70/30. The people saying that it was obviously the wrong call are full of crap. It wasn't completely obvious to anyone. It probably did not help that the TV said that one of the officials had called it a first down (He did not) and that Gene Sterotore, paid by a network that want controversy for views and clicks is one of the people full of crap.
But there were 13 minutes to go, and Buffalo had the lead at the time. They got outplayed in the 4th quarter. Because that is what the Chiefs do. In the 4th quarter, they had (not counting the 2 kneel downs) 18 plays for 139 yards. Buffalo had 20 for 96. The Chiefs scored 4 more points. That was it. In the 4 playoff wins against the Bills combined, the Chiefs have outscored the Bills 44-22 after the beginning of the 4th quarter. Hey, 4 of these is like a game.
It looked like the official to the top of the screen was going to mark it as a first down, possibly guessing by the position of Allen's helmet and assuming the ball was in front of Josh (the official could not have seen. the ball). The position to the bottom of the screen could actually see that the ball did not appear to be clearly in front of the helmet and gave what I thought was a fair mark. It was very, very close.
I thought they got the first down twice.
Your average baseball fan probably doesn't know Josh Gibson based just on his first name. Catcher is kind of a tough one, though, as I'm not sure who else to put? I guess Yogi, even though that's obviously not his real first name.
What? Not "Sandy" or "The Left Arm of God" for LHP?
As a fan who watches the Chiefs every week, it seems pretty clear that Mahomes is dragging an offense that has very few real playmakers to success. I think if you gave him a half decent offensive line and one superstar receiver he'd go right back to throwing for 5,000 yards. Just watching what he did Sunday with a healthy Hollywood Brown showed what they could be capable of.